by Devin Birse (@devvvvi.b)
In the canon of the American underground few bands are as influential and enduring as The Jesus Lizard. Born from the ashes of vocalist David Yow and bassist David Sims' nightmare punk act Scratch Acid with the additions of Duane Denison on guitar and Mac McNeilly on drums, the four-piece pumps out a brilliantly twisted sound. It's a fusion of rhythm and precision with thrashing drums, crushing bass, razor-like guitar lines, and drunken screeching vocals that occasionally coalesce terrifying moments of clarity.
With their first album in twenty-six years on the horizon it proved an excellent moment to converse over Zoom. Rack, like every Jesus Lizard album before it is magnificent. It’s a tightly coiled beast of drunken rambles and screeching guitar grounded by one of the best rhythm sections to stalk the stage. Despite that, it remarkably doesn’t feel like a rehash, every song feels fresh and as good as their work in the nineties whilst harboring new details and dynamics that come more and more to life on each listen.
Rack isn’t just a great addition to The Jesus Lizards’s catalogue but a reminder that they’re a band who don’t make great music but brilliant music, significant music, intimidating to interview about music. Thankfully the band's legendary guitarist Duane Denison proves to be a mercurial and engaging subject. While an absolute maestro on the guitar, in my opinion being the best player to touch it in the nineties outside of PJ Harvey, Denison is practical in his views of music and playing. His insights are direct, his influences varied and his use of pedals minimal. Over the half an hour we talked, I got to discuss the band's sound and evolution, the joys found in challenges when playing live, and of course their dynamic and deliciously gruesome new album.
[This interview has been edited for length and clarity]
photo credit: Joshua Black Wilkins
Devin: You’ve got your first album as a band in twenty-six years coming out in four days, so firstly a well-deserved congratulations, and secondly, how are you feeling about it entering the world? Does it feel particularly different to releasing any of your previous records?
Duane: Well, it sure does. For me it’s not quite so abrupt because I probably put more music out than the others, I had an album out just a couple of years ago with my band Tomahawk. But of course, this is different because it’s The Jesus Lizard and we haven’t done anything in a while. The world has changed, the way people listen to and disseminate music alone is a lot different. But at the same time, there seems to be good anticipation for this so it is exciting. It’s still fun and exciting having something out no matter how old you get. We’re all very keen on people hearing this.
Devin: I read that you consider this album to contain references to the past but mainly as a point of departure. Are there any tracks where you find that movement away from the past is particularly pronounced?
Duane: Yeah, I think the most obvious one is the fourth track ‘What If?’ which is kinda atmospheric with more of a spoken word dramatic thing from David. ‘Swan The Dog’ the last one is a multi-sectional one and it has an acoustic weird guitar thing going on. But honestly, most of the others could’ve been recorded thirty years ago. Though those two songs might be the most different.
Devin: I was actually gonna ask what inspired ‘What If?’ as it really stands out in the track list.
Duane: The storyline was based on something that happened to me. Years ago, I was out one evening and I ran into an old friend, and he was with his wife and his wife’s sister-in-law. He pulled me aside and told me his wife’s sister-in-law was a recent widow and this was her first time out. So, he asked if I could hang out with her and get her to dance and all that. So, I tried but it was kind of awkward to be honest, but y’know we chatted for a while and then I went about my business and ran into some other people, we never did end up dancing. The what if part comes from what if it had gone a little further? What if it turned out she had this whole bizarre life other people didn’t know about? What if she wanted to leave and go score some drugs at some place full of bad people, and then I realise she had her husband killed by all these maniacs she hangs with and now they’re gonna kill me as well?
Devin: Do you find that a lot of the lyrics in the band’s work come from moments like that? Real-life encounters that you can then expand off into the fantastical?
Duanne: Yeah, there’s always been some of that and then there’s things you just read about or hear about, and with David these extreme stories. For example, ‘Hide & Seek’ the opening track was based on something he had actually heard about but maybe didn’t directly experience. But it’s nice to take to those things so then you have something to put a spin on.
Devin: Like a one-foot-in-reality type thing?
Duane: Yeah, sure.
Devin: Focusing back on the record itself, a lot of it sounds like your classic ninety’s material but with a new flair. Did you find in writing the record that what inspired it was a lot of the same stuff as the previous records or did any new bands or artistic influences take hold around it?
Duane: That’s a good question. I think that we all listen to lots of different things and continue to do that, whether or not those actively show up as influences I’m not so sure. It seems like things happen without even being conscious of it. I was surprised that side one almost references more of The Stooges than anything we’ve ever done, but without trying. People used to mention us in the same breath as them and we always fought against that. David Yow, I can see how they could compare him to Iggy Pop but not really, I always thought we were a bit more sophisticated shall we say than those guys. But at the same time, we still like playing stripped-down driving rock music. So, if anything it was things from our past that kept resurfacing whether it was Stooges, or Motorhead, or Pistols or whatever, those things never go away. But y’know I still like Motorhead, but I also like Radiohead, I like some of the newer stuff Fontaines DC, and of course Idles. So, it all just kinda shows up swirls around, and comes back out.
Devin: I read that these originally started as instrumentals between you, David Sims, and Mac McNeilly, with Yow only becoming involved later. Is that correct?
Duane: That’s pretty much it. David Yow had been dragging his feet about this for a while, so we decided to just start on it anyway. Because in my experience with not just him but other people, if you just start doing it anyway and then give them a taste, they’ll wanna get in on it and that’s exactly what happened. And once he got into it, he was wildly enthusiastic about it.
Devin: Once he got involved was it a smooth process finishing them with David’s added vocals or was there any friction?
Duane: No, by now we know each other well enough to know what we like and don’t like, what we're good at and what we're not good at. We play to each other’s strengths. David's a vocalist, he’s not a singer in the traditional sense and he knows that but that’s liberating for me. When someone’s a straight singer they wanna sing in certain keys or certain tempos but David has never applied any restrictions to us. We can write pretty much whatever we want and see what he does with it. It’s like anything else, things never turn out quite how you think they should or will, but you just accept it will come out different and it always has.
Devin: Over the years you’ve performed in a variety of different acts, most prominently Tomahawk with Mike Patton. Do you find any difference in dynamic working with Tomahawk to working with The Jesus Lizard? Also is there anything from your work with Tomahawk that’s come into how you approach stuff with The Jesus Lizard?
Duane: Well, there’s a big difference in working with those. With Tomahawk, I pretty much write all the music and Mike does all the vocals, and then we work on arrangements with everyone. With The Jesus Lizard music has pretty much been split up between me and David Sims and then David Yow and Mac. With David Yow of course writing lyrics and David and Mac jumping in on the arrangements and mix so it is a bit different. But Tomahawk doesn’t affect it, I tend to just write things in spurts and whatever’s going on at the time that’s where it goes.
Devin: On the album, you guys have maintained the extremely tight dynamic you had across your 90s records. Do you find that those dynamics come back quite immediately, or do they take a few rehearsal sessions?
Duane: It takes about an hour. We can go weeks or months without playing together, y’know everyone does their homework and practices and then we get together and it takes an hour or two to come into focus. We kinda have our thing and it settles in fairly quickly. I suppose some people might disagree. We played a show just the other night, a big outdoor thing and there were a couple of missed cues here and there but that’s extra entertainment value I think.
Devin: Speaking of playing live you guys have developed quite a reputation as a live band. Have you found your approach to playing live has in any way shifted over the years?
Duane: Not really. Well slightly for me because I use effects more and have a multi-effect pedal board. When we first started, I just went straight into the amp partially because it could be such mayhem on stage that anything could get wrecked. Now that’s not always the case. But if anything, when you get older you learn how to pace yourself. I think we've always paced the set well, start off banging, cool it off a little in the middle, and then bring it back around towards the end then do your encores. But it hasn’t changed much. It’s a rock band and rock music to me is excitement, motion, dynamics, and power and that’s what makes it exciting for both us and the audience.
Devin: You said the only difference is the addition of pedals. What pedals are you using?
Duane: Nothing out of the ordinary. I use a really standard Helix multi-thing and just have programmed in my own particular settings. I’ve never been one of these guys who’s over shopping online buying vintage this vintage that, going oh you gotta have this one this serial number here, and this year here. I’ve just never been that. I’ve just always thought it’s in your hands, it's in your mind, and you can just make it happen. I’ve never been a purist either, I think a lot of the digital stuff is really good now. It sounds good and it's practical and when you’re travelling and things you have to be practical. Though I played a session with Jack White a couple of years ago cause he lives in Nashville and he was showing me his pedalboard and there was one sound, in particular, I really liked it was the mantic flex. So, I bought the Third Man mantic flex pedal and I use it on the noisy bit on ‘What If?’ so that’s the one esoteric one.
Devin: But outside of that you’re not exactly trying to make shoegaze tracks.
Duane: No, there’s plenty of people doing that, you don’t need me to do it.
Devin: I do think people can be dependent on pedalboards. The other day I was at a gig and the guitarist's pedalboard blew out and he was like, are you guys sure you still want me to play the song, its gonna sound like shit? I feel like you’re too reliant on the pedalboard if you can’t play without it.
Duane: If you can’t get by without you absolutely are.
Devin: I think it should be an addition more than anything else.
Duane: Yeah, some flashes of color here and there. If it breaks down, you bypass it or maybe play different songs.
Devin: Talking about playing live, do you find there are any tracks you particularly dread playing live?
Duane: Nothing that I particularly dread but there are songs with tricky parts. No matter how many times I play them they’re still tricky and you have to mentally and physically get ready for that. There’s an arpeggio break in ‘Boilermaker’. In ‘Then Comes Dudley’ there’s a sliding chord thing, it’s very easy to get it wrong, one small miss and the whole thing just loses something. It makes me feel terrible because I know that there’s little parts in songs people are counting on hearing. They want it to sound like the record and if it doesn’t, I truly feel like I’m letting people down. So, there’s always that in the back of your mind. There's even a little chord break in the middle of 'Seasick' for instance. I finger this kinda difficult chord shape and there’s open strings at the same time. Well, if you don’t finger it quite right you're gonna deaden those strings and they don’t ring the way they should and then they just sound awful. It almost never happens but it can, so I practice those parts, still to this day I put extra time in on those parts. I tend to think that’s what people do whether you play jazz or you’re a violinist playing a concerto. You have the parts where you’re coasting and the parts where you really have to focus. There's definitely tricky spots.
Devin: But not necessarily spots of dread because you don’t want to play the track.
Duane: Oh I see, no to me the challenge is part of what makes it interesting, if there were no tough spots it’d be hard to get up for it. When I hear famous guitar players say things like ‘oh I never get nervous before I play’ I think well that’s because you don’t play anything difficult.
Devin: You’ve already done a few live shows recently but with your new tour, you’ll be getting to play a lot more of the album live. Are there any tracks on the album you’re interested in hearing in a larger live context?
Duane: Well, we’ve had three singles so far, ‘Hide & Seek’, ‘Alexis Feels Sick’ and ‘Moto(r)’, we've played two of those and there’s a fourth single coming this week which is more of an upbeat one with a video by this brilliant artist, Bill Barminski. So those are the first ones because people have already heard them, so they’ll get a roar of recognition. As with any album, there’s some you won’t play live and those you’ll constantly play live. ‘Alexis Feels Sick’ is gonna be interesting to play live. ‘Moto(r)’ is straightforward fast rock. We played it the other night in fact, and I screwed up the beginning. I got so used to practicing by myself with a metronome that I kicked it off and we had to stop because no, the drummer kicks it off and we start with the drums. So that was funny, but that added to the entertainment.
Devin: I feel like that’s part of the whole live dynamic though. When things are too rehearsed and pristine it can seem like a tribute act.
Duane: Yes, on the one hand, there’s precision but sometimes it seems a bit canned, like you’re watching a play.
Devin: I feel like I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention the late great Steve Albini, who you had a close working relationship with as he produced your debut EP and first four albums. Have you found a big difference between working with him and other producers?
Duane: Well, we were different people then. Everyone was a lot more abrasive and sometimes aggressively mean, and the sense of humour and the comedy level was different. There's some of that still there but over time you grow up and you leave some things behind. It's funny though, we thought we might do a reality show where we move back to Chicago and live all four of us in a three-bedroom apartment and try to make a record with Steve again and act like it’s 1991, eating tuna out of a can for dinner. I don’t think it would’ve worked.
Devin: What would you have named that reality show if it happened?
Duane: [laughs] I haven’t thought it through that far.
Devin: It’s not quite at pilot stage yet, is it?
Duane: I’ll let you do that Devin.
Devin: Across your career, you’ve gained a reputation for being a band's band, how true do you find that to be?
Duane: Yeah, I’ve heard that, and I’ve heard it for a long time so I accept it. I mean that’s usually what they call bands who aren’t nearly as commercially successful as others from their era but still stick around. I have heard bits of influence here and there in other people’s things and I’m fairly flattered to hear that. When I think of most of the bands that I liked when I was younger, they tend to be English whether it was Magazine, Public Image Limited, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and Gang of Four. I think the same could be said for them, they were hugely influential and not necessarily popular in the broad sense. Especially the guitar players from those like The Birthday Party. I feel like maybe we’ve become that; we’ve become one of them and if that’s the case I can live with that.
Devin: It's a good legacy to have especially when you look at those bands. To expand on that with this idea of The Jesus Lizard being a band's band, what is the band's band for The Jesus Lizard if that makes sense?
Duane: I think the ones that I mentioned a minute ago. Magazine, Killing Joke, early Public Image, The Birthday Party, Gang of Four. There were also things we really liked but we didn’t necessarily want to be like them like Suicide, Pere Ubu, even early Leather Nun. Things that we liked and thought had a maniacally focused, narrow range of what they did but nobody could touch them when it came to that. That had some pull over us. For a long time, I remember David Yow thought the holy trinity of rock was AC/DC, Ramones, Motorhead, which I can see, though I always thought we had more of a quirk to us than those guys. So that stuff came and then there was a wave of things that came afterward in the US. To me the underground we became a part of was The Butthole Surfers, Sonic Youth, Scratch Acid, we came in with that or slightly behind that and that’s part of the continuum I see us as.
Devin: As a final question what track are you most excited to play live?
Duane: Oh, I’m not sure. ‘Alexis Feels Sick’ has a very twisted stealthy atmospheric quality, I can see already it's gonna be a little tricky to pull off as it’s got these quiet bits coming out of the loud spots and you have to really listen to each other closely to not get lost. When you’re playing a bigger place with a big stage hearing those softer drumming bits you really have to focus. So that’ll be challenging, but hopefully an enjoyable challenge.
Devin: From everything you said, it seems that for you a lot of the joy in playing live comes from that challenge.
Duane: Maybe so. It's fun to get the energy going and feel the crowd is on your side, and it's like the songs are playing themselves. But at the same time, I look forward to having to concentrate, having to dig in, and focus. Having that little bit of apprehension like a skateboarder or whatever feels when they’re hitting some big thing where you can wipe out completely if you don’t get it right. So yeah, I still really enjoy that.