by Taylor Ruckle (@TaylorRuckle)
Imagine it’s a beautiful day on Rockaway Beach. The kind–as Elise Okusami envisions–you might want as your last, if a tidal wave happened to be looming in the distance, just waiting to wipe you and your friends from the face of the earth. The Brooklyn indie rock artist who records as Oceanator used that tension, between the joy of being alive and the dread of living in catastrophic times, to powerful effect on her debut album, 2020’s Things I Never Said, and it returns in full force on the sequel, titled with a characteristic bluntness: Nothing’s Ever Fine. On “Beach Days (Alive Again),” she channels it into a sea-salted summer jam where the possibility of disaster is never far away.
“That's a lot of the time what I gravitate towards in books,” she says. “Some big, crazy story that still has heart and emotion, but set on this backdrop of something absurd.” An avowed science fiction fan, she cites inspiration from Octavia Butler’s Parable of the Sower and Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse Five (it was assigned in two high school english classes, and she’s read it repeatedly in the years since, she tells me with a laugh) plus the fantasy writing of NK Jemisin. “It could be real, but it's also just giving you something to latch onto to explain a feeling better than a story about, like, ‘I'm sad,’ or whatever.”
Her first record since signing to the Polyvinyl Record Co., Nothing’s Ever Fine is heavier and more conceptual than its predecessor, tied together with a recurring guitar motif, building its absurdity in crushing riffs and buoyant melodies. From the bleary-eyed wakeup song “Nightmare Machine,” Okusami carries on through a day’s worth of could-be tsunamis and solar flares, co-produced with her brother Mike Okusami as well as Bartees Strange. Ahead of the April 8 release, Okusami spoke with Post-Trash about crafting the record’s guitar tones, coping with anxiety, and revisiting her days growing up in the DC music scene.
photo credit: Alex Joseph
"Stuck" is your [most recent] single. Do you think this is the heaviest song you've ever put out, sound-wise?
I think so. It's got, like, four or six baritone guitars in some of the parts, and the five string bass, and then double kick and stuff. So just sound-wise, it's already heavy, and then I wanted to lean into that, make it chunky and scary--yeah, I think it is. [laughs] I thought it would be fun. I wasn't originally thinking of this one as a single, 'cause I thought it would be too heavy, and then Polyvinyl and Big Scary Monsters were both like, "Do you wanna do 'Stuck' as a single?" I was like, "Okay, cool!" So yeah, it's fun to get a little bit of a taste of what you're in for.
Yeah, in general, it feels like this album gets much bigger than Things I Never Said. What was the process like, conceptualizing where this record would go?
It all kind of centers around the fact that I got a baritone guitar finally, 'cause I'd been wanting to get one for a very long time. "From the Van" I actually just tuned to C standard one of the guitars that I have, 'cause that was the lowest it would go and sort of hold in tune [laughs] but it wasn't very happy. The demo's funny-sounding, 'cause it's like, really-not-quite-in-tune, but close enough, you know?
I had that, and then I had the "Bad Brain Daze" riff and the "Last Summer" riff, but they weren't full songs yet. Then I got a baritone guitar, and the day I got it, wrote "Stuck" and wrote "Evening" and wrote that riff that's in "Morning" and "Post-Meridian," which I would have named "Afternoon," except I already have a song named that. [laughs] Once I got those riffs done, I could hear the world of the record and hear where I wanted it to go sound-wise, and then finished all the songs with that in mind.
The first record kind of goes from night to morning, in that it starts with "Goodbye, Goodnight" and it ends with "Sunshine." It feels a little bit like this record is the next day, you know? Like waking up after.
Oh, yeah, I didn't do that on purpose, but that's cool! I kind of am thinking of this one as a continuation of the thoughts from the last one too. Things I Never Said definitely ended on a more hopeful note, and this one, the way I kind of hear it is it can go either way. There's a lot of moments of, like, "Here are some nice things that we like, and also, everything's terrible," and then the last song, "Evening," there's kind of just--yeah, painting a picture, of like, "Listen to this. Listen to that. Here's where you are."
Some people have heard it and thought, "Oh, this is a nice, cathartic ending, and this feels good, and I feel hopeful," and some people have heard it and been like, "Oh no! This is devastating." [laughs] That's part of why I wrote the lyrics so vaguely and just kind of painting a picture, 'cause I just wanted it to evoke a scene and then be whatever you were feeling in the moment. I've played it solo a couple times, and even then, it means a different thing for me depending on how I'm feeling that day, so it keeps it fun for me too.
Tell me about the first song on this record, "Nightmare Machine." How did you hit on that phrase, "nightmare machine," and where did that song unfold from?
It's one of the last lyrics I did. Everything else was finished about that song. I had the whole structure and everything, except the drums, which, I didn't write any, 'cause I just asked my brother if he would play drums on it. He said yes, and I just didn't hear them until I went into the studio, and I was like, "Yeah, this is perfect, great."
But everything else was done, and I knew the structure of it, so I would just play it whenever I had my guitar in hand and just try to let my brain float around. I had in my journal some of those lines about the car going over the bridge and stuff, so that's where I kind of started. I don't know specifically where "nightmare machine" came from, but I remember when I thought it, I was like, "This is it! I've made it! I'm here," like, "This encompasses everything about the song,” so I kinda took that phrase and ran with it.
Another fun thing about it is that--'cause it starts the record, so I kind of think about it like, "Okay, it's starting the record because it's morning, and this song is about waking up, and you've just had all these nightmares,” but also it's like, "I'm about to tell you about a bunch more nightmares on the rest of this album." I'm literally being a nightmare machine.
You're also introducing the concept that maybe all of this is a dream.
Totally, yeah. Because I don't know about you, but I have a lot of realistic nightmares where I wake up, and I'm like, "Is that a memory that I am thinking of, or did I dream that?" Where it's just, like, something dramatic with your friend or something. I don't know.
Another thing I thought was really cool about that song is the way it pauses so long in the middle before the last chorus. It's like a false awakening.
Yeah! Oh, totally. You're like, "I had a dream," and then you're like, "I'm awake! Oh, nope. I got incepted,” or whatever. [laughs]
I saw you at Comet Ping Pong [in Washington, D.C.] last summer, and at that point you were in town recording the album, I think.
Yeah, I think I was doing overdubs and vocals.
What is it like being back in the area working on records?
I've always worked on my records there, so it's great. It feels very comfortable. I mean, Things I Never Said, some of it was done up here in New York, and some of Lows was done up here, but I've always gone home to Maryland to finish them. My brother has that studio in the basement in the house that we grew up in, so it just feels very comfortable and pleasant, I guess, to come down.
And then it's cool to get to do stuff now like play that show, or see friends that are still down there in between, and just be in a place that I know very well. I feel like I get a similar thing out of recording there--but in a different way--as I would, like, going and being isolated somewhere. Because I'm not going to a new place where I'm like, "I wanna explore!" I'm just, like, "Okay, I know what's going on in this world. I know everything about this house. There's the woods in the backyard I can walk in. If I want food, I know where I'm going to get,” so it affords me a lot of brain space to just focus on the record.
And working with Michael, my brother--I talked about this a bunch on the last record, but it's super easy, and Bartees was great. We went to his house for one day and we did the studio for four days or something.
How did you and Bartees meet and end up working together?
We met on the internet four or five years ago. This was when people still shared stuff on Facebook. [laughs] We both happened to share a song of each other's, being like, "This is cool!" And then Bartees just hit me up and was like, "Yo!" We would chat online, and then we exchanged phone numbers and would text, and then we finally met in person, like, two years after that. So yeah, it was just shared love of each other's music and music in general, is how we met.
I knew he had been producing and that he was working at the studio, so when I was looking for places to record–'cause I was excited about maybe going into a studio this time and getting some really big drum sounds, and like, you know, other instruments that they might have. We ended up using the organ and the Wurlitzer and stuff, which was super fun. But yeah, I just texted him like, "What do you think about this? What's your schedule? Here are my thoughts," and we texted about it for a bit and it worked it out.
The press release talks specifically about working with him on guitar tones for this record--what was that like, as a guitarist?
Oh, it was great, 'cause both him and Michael have this huge knowledge of gear, and also love sounds, you know? I brought in my pedals that I know, so I would be like, "I'm going for something like this sound," and I'd either play them the sound that I like, or I'd just describe it with words, and they'd be like, "Okay, great, let's try this. This amp should be good. Maybe this guitar." I feel like maybe I could have gotten those sounds also, but it would have taken forever because I don't have the same knowledge of all these instruments. I know what sound I want, and I'll get there, but it was great to be able to just be like, "This is it," and them dial it in, and me be like, "Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted," or being like, "Just one tiny change." They'd be like, "Oh, this?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, perfect."
It was really fun and smooth to work with them, and then they also every once in a while would throw in a little suggestion. Like, at that pause in "Nightmare Machine," I originally had just the guitar coming in, and then Bartees in the control room when Michael was doing the drums was like, "What if you had a little drum fill hitting with those guitars?" He went to go show Michael what he was saying, and Michael, just from the control room, was like, "Oh, you mean like this?" And played it. Bartees was like, "Yep, exactly," and I was like, "Great idea, guys." It's funny, we were practicing that song recently and I forgot that that was on the record. We got to the pause, and I didn't count, 'cause I'm used to playing it solo, and when I play it solo, I like to just let that pause breathe for as long as it feels like. So we went to it, and the drummer was just like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that you play with me here." [laughs]
But yeah, it was really fun to work with them. Andrew Whitehurst, my drummer, came down for two days to record, then we sent him back up to New York for work, and it was just me and Bartees and my brother in the studio. And Michael's dog Buddy, who's the cutest little dog in the whole world. He came and hung out the whole time, so I was gonna give him a co-producer credit [laughs] but then I was like, "I'm just gonna confuse everybody if I write that."
[laughs] At least you've gotta give a shout out in the acknowledgements or special thanks, right?
Yeah, I'm working on those--I didn't put them in the vinyl 'cause I wanted it to be very stark in there, but I'm working on a little thank yous and credits and liner notes section for the website. I did put him on the budget. When I was getting everyone paid and stuff, I put Buddy in. For his payment, it was kibble. [laughs] Nobody said anything! I was like, "Is anybody reading this budget? There's a dog on here!"
That's so funny. It's like putting something in your rider just to make sure people are reading it, right?
[laughs] Yeah, I mean, I didn't do it for that, but when nobody said anything, I was like, "Wait a second."
When you're playing a baritone guitar, is it a different playing experience? Or is it just magically deeper?
It's both, I guess. It's still tuned in the same intervals, the way I have it–it's not open tuning or anything–so it's just a fourth down from a standard guitar. The strings are really fat, so that took some getting used to, just to hold and play, but other than that, it's pretty much the same, except you've gotta transpose stuff if you're, you know, playing something that actually was in standard, or whatever.
But if you're just playing your own stuff or farting around and you don't really care what actual key you're in--you're just having a nice time--then yeah, it's pretty similar. It's just heavy, and it feels great and big, especially coming out of the amp. We actually used this pedal, this Fowl Sounds Obsidian pedal that Bartees had. We plugged it in, plugged in my baritone to it, and I was like, "This is the best-sounding thing ever." I went home that night and bought it, 'cause I was like, "If we're gonna record with this, I have to have this sound." [laughs] It feels really big and powerful to play--just hitting that B, you're just like, "Yeah."
When I saw you the second time last year, it was at Songbyrd--you played "The Last Summer," which is the big D.C. song on the record. When did you write that?
I wrote the lyrics for it in June of 2021 [laughs] like a month before I went to record them. I had that riff--the whole verse, basically, I've had for a couple years, and I would just play it, and I didn't do anything with it. I usually do the music first and then add the lyrics, so that's another one where we had it recorded, everything was done, and then I was like, "Alright, time to finish these lyrics."
I had a vague idea of what they were going to be, and I knew the melody and the cadence and stuff, and my friend--I was having some writer's block, and I was like, "Jonathan, send me some things to write songs about." He sent me this list of random ideas, and one of them I think was just, like, a night out with your friends. I was thinking about that, and I was like, “It would be fun to write about something more than just, ‘we went to the bar’ or whatever.” I was feeling nostalgic. I think a lot of us were [laughs] during quarantine and stuff, so I was thinking about growing up in D.C. We used to play a show and then sometimes just drive downtown and hang out at the Washington Monument, or the Lincoln Memorial, 'cause it would be quiet, and they'd all be lit up, and it was cool to go see. Or, you know, we'd just drive around listening to CDs or the radio, like, all the time.
I got those lyrics done, and then David Combs [of Bad Moves] hit me up and was like, "Oh, if you need any singing on your record..." I was like, "I actually have the perfect song and part for you!" Originally that part in the bridge was gonna be just me, 'cause I usually just do all the vocals. I was like, "You're one of the people that was here doing this with me in high school, so yes, you should definitely be on this song." David came over one of the days we were doing at home and put down those vocals and the ones for "Bad Brain Daze.” I've been a big fan of his music for...ages [laughs] so it was cool. Even when I was practicing for tour earlier today, I was like, "Oh, this is fun! David's voice is on my record!"
It's funny to me as somebody who grew up very suburban. The only driving experiences I've had around D.C. have been really stressful and not as fun as this song is.
[laughs] Yeah, my high school was in D.C., and I lived out in Maryland, so I would drive a lot. And my friends all lived much closer to D.C., so I would drive to them, and we would just drive around. I remember going back and forth on Western, and through the circles and stuff. Downtown was a special occasion, and only late at night, so there wouldn't be all that stressful traffic and stuff. You know, you play at the Black Cat Backstage when they had that, and like, Kaffa House, the U Turn, and all these venues that aren't there anymore, and then we were like, "Well, we're already at U Street, so...let's go downtown," or we'd go get a jumbo slice of pizza or whatever in Adams Morgan.
You played that song at your show with Cheekface, and then later that night, you posted pictures with everybody out at the monuments--what was it like going out there with the tour group?
It was fun! I don't think any of the Cheek Freaks--I don't know if they're also Cheek Freaks or just their fans are Cheek Freaks, actually. I hope Greg doesn't yell at me. But I don't know if they had been out there, I can't remember. Me and David were just both like, "We're in D.C. We gotta do it." We did the loop we usually do, which is Washington Monument through the World War II Memorial, down the Reflecting Pool, which was empty that night--like, no water! I had never actually seen it. Then up to the Lincoln Memorial, and then back through Vietnam, and then you leave, 'cause you're too sad. [laughs] It was fun to hang out with them and get to do that.
Do you have any standout memories from after shows in other cities?
Honestly, after the show, I like to go to sleep, 'cause I'm tired all the time, but we had a really nice time on this last tour with Jeff Rosenstock and Slaughter Beach, Dog. One of the nights in North Carolina after the show, the whole tour group basically just hung out in the parking lot for, like, two hours, just talking and being outside, and that was really fun and nice.
Especially if it's on a tour, I like it to just be chill after the show and not a whole adventure. But before shows or on days off, I really like to go walk in the woods, or take a hike, or walk around the neighborhood if we get there early enough, like, where the venue is, just to not just be in a van and a room and then a van and another room. [laughs]
Where's the best tour hiking spot you've found?
Also on this last tour, we did a really cool hike that ended up being way harder than expected in El Paso that was, like, straight up this mountain. [laughs] But when we got there, it was really cool 'cause we had this huge view of desert and more mountains, so that one was really, really fun. And then there's always nice stuff in the northeast. Like, New York, Massachusetts area. It's good woods and waterfalls and stuff up there.
This is a very indulgent line of questioning because I have not done a lot of traveling in the last year, so I like just hearing about, "Oh, tell me all the places you've been.”
Yeah, it's been a while since we've done the hikes also. Like, the El Paso one is the most recent. That's why I can definitely remember it. Usually, what we'll do is we'll figure out where we're staying and then we'll just look on the map, like, "What's the closest thing we can do?" and then just go do that. [laughs]
I've read that some of the vignettes that wound up being songs on this record were originally intended for a short film. If you could do the next Oceanator project in any medium besides a traditional album, what would you want it to be?
I would still love to do the short film sort of thing. The idea I had for it was there would be a story with dialogue and everything, and the songs would soundtrack it, basically, or be the score, so it was gonna be "Morning" and "Solar Flares" and "Post-Meridian" and "Evening," and I feel like there was one other that was supposed to be in it. I'm blanking on it right now, but they were gonna tell this story. I had all these parts blocked out and stuff, which–when I was writing them, it helped with the lyrics, just seeing what I thought was gonna be that. I was like, "Okay, I'll just make one big, long music video," and then I was like, "I can't do any of this. I don't have the time or the money." [laughs]
I also had an idea of doing a short story companion book with the record, where each song would have a short story that was set in the same world as the song, but wasn't, like, expanding on the song itself. It would be like, we're living in the world of “The Last Summer” where these people are hanging out, and then some side character also interacts with them and lives in this world, but has a different whole story. I had started working on that, and then also was like, "I'm doing too much." So I would love to do one of those two things.
I loved the video that you put out [for “Bad Brain Daze,”] with Chris Farren and Jeff Rosenstock.
Yeah, that was cool! We were trying to make a video, and they were just like, "What if Chris Farren did it?" And I was like, "Okay, I didn't know he made music videos." He said yes, so I flew out there. We had talked on FaceTime or something about my ideas for it, and then we did a whole brainstorming thing, and he was like, "What about this and this?" and I was like, "Yeah, perfect!" We were on the same page the whole time. I kept being like, "I don't know how you're gonna do all that, but cool," [laughs] and throughout the week before I got there, he kept sending me little clips of the animation, and I remember writing back, like, "How are you doing this?" It was so fast.
He was a great director. He sent me in an email, like, second by second how everything was gonna go. Then we set up for the scene, and he'd be like, "Okay, so this is what you're gonna do," and he'd walk in, narrate it, and act it out, and then I'd be like, "Great, I can just copy what you did. Perfect." [laughs] It was really, really fun. And yeah, Jeff, I was like, "Well, since I'm out here, you have to come be in the video, right?" And he was like, "Oh, yeah, I'll come be in that."
Is it autobiographical? Do you struggle with phone anxiety?
I struggle with just general anxiety. Phone definitely doesn't help. I definitely look at it way more than I should, but I feel like that was more just to illustrate the general idea.
How do you deal with the anxiety of all the things you talk about on this record?
In real life, I deal with it very poorly, which is why I keep writing about it, I guess. [laughs] But I'm trying to get better at having routines, you know? When I can actually get into my routines, which comes and goes, it's better overall, and trying to get back to sleeping, which I've always struggled with.
When it gets to be a day that's as bad as I'm describing in "Bad Brain Daze," where you just wake up and you're like, "Oh, this is a bad one," like, "I already know, and there's just gonna be nothing I can do,” especially recently, I've been just like, "Okay, well, if there's anything that absolutely has to be done, I'll do it, but otherwise, I'm just gonna read, I'm gonna try to go for a walk, I'm just gonna try to play guitar or whatever.” 'Cause whatever I'm actually gonna try to get done is gonna be a struggle, and done poorly, you know? Those days, I just try to get through until it's bedtime, and then try to get some sleep and hope that when I wake up the next day, I'll feel better. 'Cause there's a certain point where you're just like, "This day is a wash. It's just not happening today." Like, "Alright, well, my brain sabotaged me. Today is over." [laughs]